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	<title>Comments on: Liars</title>
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	<description>EL CHAVO! - Mouthing Off</description>
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		<title>By: gabajew</title>
		<link>http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727&#038;cpage=1#comment-20830</link>
		<dc:creator>gabajew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727#comment-20830</guid>
		<description>I know that in the early 1900&#039;s Mexicans and Jews cooperated socially and politically in Lincoln Heights. Both were subject to the same discriminatory practices. The Jews moved out completely and little or nothing of their legacy is left. For a time Lincoln Heights was known as being part of Little Italy, now China Town. Interesting that LH was named by a Confederate Officer who bought the land and sub-divided it to his wealthy white friends, I guess he was playing up to the winning side then. A great number of middle-class Chicanos moved to the suburbs after WWII but no one talks about Brown Flight. Even though LH remains a Mexican American stronghold, there is still a large immigrant population with a constant flux of nationalities. 

It is easy, and frequently justified, to criticize the vision of outsiders to one&#039;s community. What I am missing in this particular discussion is the vision of what Lincoln Heights could be for it&#039;s existing and future residents. If there is poor quality retail and we don&#039;t want big box chains, what do we want? Is Tesco an option? What can this community look like in terms of culture and diversity, socially, economically and politically? Or, maybe this is as good as it can get.

As a Jew who has taken Chicano Studies, I believe that Los Angeles is only as good as it&#039;s Latino communities. The truth is that communities that have  variety of CLASS differences are the strongest. The suburbs are all about class homogeneity. The city should be about class diversity. How do we encourage that and stay true to ourselves and our communities?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that in the early 1900&#8242;s Mexicans and Jews cooperated socially and politically in Lincoln Heights. Both were subject to the same discriminatory practices. The Jews moved out completely and little or nothing of their legacy is left. For a time Lincoln Heights was known as being part of Little Italy, now China Town. Interesting that LH was named by a Confederate Officer who bought the land and sub-divided it to his wealthy white friends, I guess he was playing up to the winning side then. A great number of middle-class Chicanos moved to the suburbs after WWII but no one talks about Brown Flight. Even though LH remains a Mexican American stronghold, there is still a large immigrant population with a constant flux of nationalities. </p>
<p>It is easy, and frequently justified, to criticize the vision of outsiders to one&#8217;s community. What I am missing in this particular discussion is the vision of what Lincoln Heights could be for it&#8217;s existing and future residents. If there is poor quality retail and we don&#8217;t want big box chains, what do we want? Is Tesco an option? What can this community look like in terms of culture and diversity, socially, economically and politically? Or, maybe this is as good as it can get.</p>
<p>As a Jew who has taken Chicano Studies, I believe that Los Angeles is only as good as it&#8217;s Latino communities. The truth is that communities that have  variety of CLASS differences are the strongest. The suburbs are all about class homogeneity. The city should be about class diversity. How do we encourage that and stay true to ourselves and our communities?</p>
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		<title>By: P-3000</title>
		<link>http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727&#038;cpage=1#comment-20810</link>
		<dc:creator>P-3000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727#comment-20810</guid>
		<description>Well there is hope for you then, if you can openly, and apparently &quot;said many times,&quot; that your ESL studies has limited your writing abilities, hey you got to also see how ESL, going to school in Compton, environmental pollution, etc and so forth might have also affected your logic, heart and sense of the world.  Maybe you just need to de-toxify yourself?
I can help. 
I have hope, you might still become a leftie after all!

LOL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well there is hope for you then, if you can openly, and apparently &#8220;said many times,&#8221; that your ESL studies has limited your writing abilities, hey you got to also see how ESL, going to school in Compton, environmental pollution, etc and so forth might have also affected your logic, heart and sense of the world.  Maybe you just need to de-toxify yourself?<br />
I can help.<br />
I have hope, you might still become a leftie after all!</p>
<p>LOL</p>
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		<title>By: HispanicPundit</title>
		<link>http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727&#038;cpage=1#comment-20802</link>
		<dc:creator>HispanicPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727#comment-20802</guid>
		<description>Couple of ending comments before I end this conversation,

In case it wasn&#039;t obvious, when I wrote &quot;a non-political field - engineering&quot;, what I meant was that it is a field where a professor would have a harder time inserting political views without looking political. It&#039;s alot easier to indoctrinate the students when teaching Chicano Studies than, say, introduction to circuits. 1+1 will always equal 2, regardless of the political affiliation. Same goes for the students...the political views are more diverse and varying.

As far as political upbringing - I should have been clearer, I was not completely absent from political influences. For one, my family is not completely a-political. My dad and family have been (forced) members of a union for sometimes longer than I have been alive.  So I have some experience with unions, and hearing my dads constant rants about how useless unions are did predispose me towards the anti-union side (which is at odds with immigration too, remember Cesar Chavez).  Second, being raised in Compton and living in a Mexican household and family gave me experience with the liberal side and some of its views.

My primary point in saying I was raised a-political was that I was not predisposed to write off certain political beliefs as &#039;racist&#039;, greedy&#039;, and evil&#039;. I entered the topic of politics with an open mind to reading books on both sides of the political aisle. I didn&#039;t just assume that the only real debate in politics is between the left and the extreme left.

P-3000 writes, &lt;i&gt;based on your seemingly constant need to quote, you seem to have a lack of self esteem in your ideas and beliefs or at least writing them in your own words. You aren’t a pundit so much as someone who quotes his idols.&lt;/i&gt;

As I&#039;ve said many times before, I  quote often because it is easier for me - being a former ESL student - than to write a post saying basically the same thing.

But, please, don&#039;t take that to mean that I am unwilling to engage in discourse. &lt;a href=&quot;http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/05/09/capitalism-vs-others-a-discussion/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This old discussion between me and you, P-3000, is still open to comments&lt;/a&gt;. Consider this a form invitation, if you ever feel like you would like to read something other than the Chomsky or Michael Moore perspective, do stop by &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; comment as you see fit. Unlike your blog, you can be assured that I do not moderate comments with opposing views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couple of ending comments before I end this conversation,</p>
<p>In case it wasn&#8217;t obvious, when I wrote &#8220;a non-political field &#8211; engineering&#8221;, what I meant was that it is a field where a professor would have a harder time inserting political views without looking political. It&#8217;s alot easier to indoctrinate the students when teaching Chicano Studies than, say, introduction to circuits. 1+1 will always equal 2, regardless of the political affiliation. Same goes for the students&#8230;the political views are more diverse and varying.</p>
<p>As far as political upbringing &#8211; I should have been clearer, I was not completely absent from political influences. For one, my family is not completely a-political. My dad and family have been (forced) members of a union for sometimes longer than I have been alive.  So I have some experience with unions, and hearing my dads constant rants about how useless unions are did predispose me towards the anti-union side (which is at odds with immigration too, remember Cesar Chavez).  Second, being raised in Compton and living in a Mexican household and family gave me experience with the liberal side and some of its views.</p>
<p>My primary point in saying I was raised a-political was that I was not predisposed to write off certain political beliefs as &#8216;racist&#8217;, greedy&#8217;, and evil&#8217;. I entered the topic of politics with an open mind to reading books on both sides of the political aisle. I didn&#8217;t just assume that the only real debate in politics is between the left and the extreme left.</p>
<p>P-3000 writes, <i>based on your seemingly constant need to quote, you seem to have a lack of self esteem in your ideas and beliefs or at least writing them in your own words. You aren’t a pundit so much as someone who quotes his idols.</i></p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said many times before, I  quote often because it is easier for me &#8211; being a former ESL student &#8211; than to write a post saying basically the same thing.</p>
<p>But, please, don&#8217;t take that to mean that I am unwilling to engage in discourse. <a href="http://hispanicpundit.com/2007/05/09/capitalism-vs-others-a-discussion/" rel="nofollow">This old discussion between me and you, P-3000, is still open to comments</a>. Consider this a form invitation, if you ever feel like you would like to read something other than the Chomsky or Michael Moore perspective, do stop by <i>and</i> comment as you see fit. Unlike your blog, you can be assured that I do not moderate comments with opposing views.</p>
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		<title>By: P-3000</title>
		<link>http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727&#038;cpage=1#comment-20795</link>
		<dc:creator>P-3000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727#comment-20795</guid>
		<description>QUOTE HP: &quot;First, I got lucky to have chosen a non-political field - engineering. So I wasn’t indoctrinated at a young age. Second, I got into politics (and economics) bias free…and was able to more fairly evaluate both sides (my parents were also a-political, so that helped). Third, I have no guilt, or lack of self-esteem when it comes ‘being brown enough’.&quot;

-Your field is political, some engineers make bombs, maybe not you, but their work is often used for political or economic reasons. Whether you care what your work is used for is your business. 

-You were indoctrinated, but into being a-political and into the American world view. I bet you have red, white and blue pom poms.

-Maybe not about being brown enough, but based on your seemingly constant need to quote, you seem to have a lack of self esteem in your ideas and beliefs or at least writing them in your own words. You aren&#039;t a pundit so much as someone who quotes his idols. 

Many of us did grow up politcal. Family members in a union, marching in the streets, getting beat by police, in a prison, deported, eminent domain, in a gang, in the police force, sometimes both. Many of us grew up knowing the good and bad of world and with the ideal of fighting to make it better. 

Many of us believe in the social contract. Many of us feel for others and it does not make us feel better or superior, it is just how we are. If you see it as a weakness or the wrong thing to be doing on this planet, that is fine too. But it shows your feelings of superiority. If I see you stranded on the freeway I hope a Friedman is behind me to stop and help you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>QUOTE HP: &#8220;First, I got lucky to have chosen a non-political field &#8211; engineering. So I wasn’t indoctrinated at a young age. Second, I got into politics (and economics) bias free…and was able to more fairly evaluate both sides (my parents were also a-political, so that helped). Third, I have no guilt, or lack of self-esteem when it comes ‘being brown enough’.&#8221;</p>
<p>-Your field is political, some engineers make bombs, maybe not you, but their work is often used for political or economic reasons. Whether you care what your work is used for is your business. </p>
<p>-You were indoctrinated, but into being a-political and into the American world view. I bet you have red, white and blue pom poms.</p>
<p>-Maybe not about being brown enough, but based on your seemingly constant need to quote, you seem to have a lack of self esteem in your ideas and beliefs or at least writing them in your own words. You aren&#8217;t a pundit so much as someone who quotes his idols. </p>
<p>Many of us did grow up politcal. Family members in a union, marching in the streets, getting beat by police, in a prison, deported, eminent domain, in a gang, in the police force, sometimes both. Many of us grew up knowing the good and bad of world and with the ideal of fighting to make it better. </p>
<p>Many of us believe in the social contract. Many of us feel for others and it does not make us feel better or superior, it is just how we are. If you see it as a weakness or the wrong thing to be doing on this planet, that is fine too. But it shows your feelings of superiority. If I see you stranded on the freeway I hope a Friedman is behind me to stop and help you.</p>
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		<title>By: urban memo</title>
		<link>http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727&#038;cpage=1#comment-20774</link>
		<dc:creator>urban memo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727#comment-20774</guid>
		<description>que viva!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>que viva!</p>
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		<title>By: Taco Sam</title>
		<link>http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727&#038;cpage=1#comment-20739</link>
		<dc:creator>Taco Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chanfles.com/blog/?p=727#comment-20739</guid>
		<description>Well, very interesting discussion.  Count me as one of the stupid ones that left the Eastside, I think. I was born and raised in Highland Park.  Does HLP classify as Eastside?  Technically, its &quot;Northeast LA&quot;.  Location is all relative I suppose. 

Chavo, I really don&#039;t think that anyone can &quot;erase their history&quot; no matter how hard they might try.  The place where you were raised will always be inside of you, a part of you, if you will, that you can never deny.  My parents left Mexico decades ago (dad in &#039;54, mom in &#039;66), but Mexico is still very much a part of their &quot;beings&quot; even though they have lived most of their lives in Los Angeles.

I&#039;m the first to admit that I don&#039;t have all the answers.  I don&#039;t know if leaving the Eastside for points east (or any other direction for that matter) is good or bad.  I think that neighborhoods in major cities like Los Angeles are always constantly changing (Brooklyn and ELA was once heavily Jewish), with people moving in and out.  Just a fact to which I don&#039;t attach any negative or positive connotation. 

I don&#039;t ever deny that I was raised in Highland Park.  But, I&#039;m not from Highland Park anymore.  As many a wise person has said, &quot;you can&#039;t wear another person&#039;s hat.&quot; I left in 1995 but still return frequently because my parents still live there.

My thinking is that people leave places for various reasons.  Its individual choice to migrate to another neighborhood.  I don&#039;t know too much about anarchy, but I understood that one of its tenets is an absence of government, laws, authority, etc. giving the individual complete liberty.  So I guess a person should have complete liberty to pick up and move to a new neighborhood for whatever reason.  Chavo, maybe you can enlighten me on how Anarchists view migration.  I&#039;m just curious about it.

I agree with HP on some points, but wow!  I had no idea Chicano Studies pressed so many buttons.  I&#039;m happy when any person goes to college, no matter what subject they study.  We need teachers, counselors, social workers, which by the way are not all &quot;low wage&quot;.  We can&#039;t all be engineers!!  

There is room for all professions and all viewpoints in this world of ours.  Viva the Eastside!!! (wherever its boundaries are nowadays)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, very interesting discussion.  Count me as one of the stupid ones that left the Eastside, I think. I was born and raised in Highland Park.  Does HLP classify as Eastside?  Technically, its &#8220;Northeast LA&#8221;.  Location is all relative I suppose. </p>
<p>Chavo, I really don&#8217;t think that anyone can &#8220;erase their history&#8221; no matter how hard they might try.  The place where you were raised will always be inside of you, a part of you, if you will, that you can never deny.  My parents left Mexico decades ago (dad in &#8217;54, mom in &#8217;66), but Mexico is still very much a part of their &#8220;beings&#8221; even though they have lived most of their lives in Los Angeles.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m the first to admit that I don&#8217;t have all the answers.  I don&#8217;t know if leaving the Eastside for points east (or any other direction for that matter) is good or bad.  I think that neighborhoods in major cities like Los Angeles are always constantly changing (Brooklyn and ELA was once heavily Jewish), with people moving in and out.  Just a fact to which I don&#8217;t attach any negative or positive connotation. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t ever deny that I was raised in Highland Park.  But, I&#8217;m not from Highland Park anymore.  As many a wise person has said, &#8220;you can&#8217;t wear another person&#8217;s hat.&#8221; I left in 1995 but still return frequently because my parents still live there.</p>
<p>My thinking is that people leave places for various reasons.  Its individual choice to migrate to another neighborhood.  I don&#8217;t know too much about anarchy, but I understood that one of its tenets is an absence of government, laws, authority, etc. giving the individual complete liberty.  So I guess a person should have complete liberty to pick up and move to a new neighborhood for whatever reason.  Chavo, maybe you can enlighten me on how Anarchists view migration.  I&#8217;m just curious about it.</p>
<p>I agree with HP on some points, but wow!  I had no idea Chicano Studies pressed so many buttons.  I&#8217;m happy when any person goes to college, no matter what subject they study.  We need teachers, counselors, social workers, which by the way are not all &#8220;low wage&#8221;.  We can&#8217;t all be engineers!!  </p>
<p>There is room for all professions and all viewpoints in this world of ours.  Viva the Eastside!!! (wherever its boundaries are nowadays)</p>
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